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Hi Jonathan. I much appreciate your quantified approach.
Question: Auto Bild shows the traction force in snow in Newton. But what does it mean, since traction depends of the weight on the tire. The CC2 has 3500N in the all season SUV test, but 'only' 3000N in the standard all season test. Why the difference? Can values between two tests be compared?
Thanks for the help.
Differences in tire sizes, vehicle weight, snow type, snow temperature etc will affect this so its only really useful comparing in the same tests
Hallo Jonathan
I understand. Thanks for the speedy reply.
I saw that Auto Bild Allrad will publish a new all season test in September.
There will be lots of new tests around the start I'd September
Is there any reason why the Pirelli are so bad on this test, compared to the TR test?
I was going to buy some 225/45/18's but the wet braking has put me right off.
None that I know of, I did write a section about the differences in the article and what it could be.
ty. For now, I'm waiting till the 2022 All Season review. IF I'm lucky, the Pirelli's will be in it again this year.
If not, I'll be looking at what this year will bring.
They were in our test this year, I believe the wet performance matched this test rather than our test last year.
Hey all! Which all season tire for a size 245/45/R18 you would recommend for really hot summers and moderate winters (temps at their lowest are around -5 to -10C and there's a snow for around 10-15 days total). The rest of the winter is usually dry, or with rain, and the temps are around -2 to 0 (night) to 10C. Mid May through end of August/mid September temps are usually between 25 to ~35C (during the day).
Michelin
Goodyear
Pirelli
Continental
On my old car I was using CC+ in the similar size (225 instead of 245 now) for the last 2 years and I was soo happy with them, all year round. Now want to fit some new all seasons for the new car (Insignia Grand Sport petrol 121kw automatic and just want to make sure I make the right choice. All 4 tires are similarly priced here (maybe 5-10 euros difference) and I'm looking for the most comfy, least noisy and with a good life span. Was definitely interested in CC2 but after reading this review I just wanted your advice if they are still the best choice.
And finally, would you all go for 96Y standard ones or 100Y XL ones?
Thank you!
CC2 won my most recent test and I have them on my own car.
Thanks for a quick reply! And yeah, I was looking at your review (and some others as well), plus my own experience from using CC+ for the last 2 years but again, this review surprised me a bit (even though they have used a different car, different tire size, different conditions etc). And actually, I was between CC2 and Pirelli as I mainly need a good summer biased all season tire (due to the general weather here)
And what do you think about standard load and extra load, with either of these (96Y and 100Y)?
I really need to test standard load vs extra load sometime, from what I understand the differences are usually small and sometimes non existent.
Thanks! And yeah, I've heard that too. But yet again, it looks like opinions are very different from everything I've seen online and heard in person. And in my example, the size I need for CC2, actually has a bit different ratings for 96Y standard one and 100Y XL one. Its C for fuel consumption and B for wet grip (standard) and it's B in both categories for XL version. And for Pirelli SF2, I can't seem to find the standard version as it looks like there's only XL version available (maybe I'm wrong).
Unless you're hyper focused on comfort, I'd be getting the 100Y XL CC2!
Yep, thinking the same. Thanks man!
Hi, have you got performance testing (dry, wet, snow etc) of all season vs winter tires as the tires wear out?
Apparently all season tires start their life soft and perform well, but then harden through life and don't do so well (in addition to having less tread).
Any thoughts?
That will depend on brand, as it does on any type of tires. Some brands use a softer top layer, good brands don't.
So pretty safe with cross climate 2?
My winter conditions are 0 to 12 deg, maybe two to three events
As safe as you can be (I've just tested that but no results until autumn this year)
Awesome, tested what exactly?
Hello,
I live in Asturias, a province in the north of Spain and I want to buy the Nokian Sessionproof.
Here in Asturias it rains most of the year. We have sea and mountains of more than 2000 meters of altitude at 70km distance between sea and mountains, although the average of the most important mountain passes where roads pass are usually around 1200-1400 meters that in winter are snowed.
The purchase of the Nokian is fine for a person that the most he has ever driven on wet roads was 140 km/h or would you advise me to buy another model of all-season tires other than Nokian. I mean if the understeer is sufficiently pronounced when driving with these tires. I have 225/45 R17 tires.
This monday I have to call to put new ones on. I will pass my michelin crossclimatic + at the front and put these new ones on the rear.
But I would like to know the opinion if these Nokian Sessionproof are good in wetter climates than snow. The wet weather in Asturias ranges from 3 degrees to 30 degrees centigrade between autumn, winter, spring and summer.
Thank you very much for your reply.
Post Data: I would like you to do a review with the new Uniroyal AllSeasonExpert 2 tires as uniroyal say they have always been one of the best tires in the wet. If anyone has tried them and can tell us how they perform in the wet and dry as well as on snow and ice I would appreciate it as well.
Regards.
If you look at the test results, the Nokian SeasonProof isn't usually great in the wet so I would buy a tire that does well in the wet, if that's your priority.
Hi, many thanks for a great review. I’m thinking of mounting all-season tires on my 7-seater (205/55/17) and this really comes in handy. At the moment, my favorites are the new Pirelli and Goodyear. I have to say that I live at the cost of Adriatic Sea with really mild weather (quite a bit of rain in the winter, though) with few short trips to middle Europe during the year.
Basically, I am looking for a tire that will “cover” summer conditions, mild winters and occasional encounter with the snow. It seems that most of these new all-season tires could get the job done, but, as I said I’m leaning towards either Pirelli or Goodyear. However, during the summer, the temperatures here easily hit 35-40 C, and I have yet to see a review that covers all-season tire behavior in this kind of heat. Plus, after a couple of months of really hot weather, what is the wear and tear on these tires? Can I expect to be using the same set for 2.5 - 3 years (I do 15 - 20 thousand km/year), or will the tires lose their intended characteristics after the first summer season? I’d appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Plus, based on your experience, would either Pirelli or Goodyear be suited for this kind of climate or would you recommend a possible
third option? Obviously, the decision is mine to make, but I’m always open for suggestions. Once again, many thanks for a great review.
They're designed to be run all year so you won't get anything dangerous in 40c, but they won't be as good as a summer tire.
Snow performance drops off noticeably after 3mm on all tires
I would be fascinated to see the results if you would include a Michelin CC2 in your summer tire tests.
There's plenty of all season tests with the CC2 and a summer reference tire which will give some some idea :) I always push to get a cc2 in anytest!
Would you say Jonathan that for those of us living in England probably the optimal set up is to use one of the many fine summer tires from May to October and an AS with the characteristics of a MCC2 or Vred Q from November to April?
On an associated point I do wonder though whether Michelin in chasing improved snow performance haven't ever so slightly taken their eye off wet capabilities.
I do like an all season as a winter tire. I would also like to see better wet performance for the cc2, but it did improve over the cc+
Thanks Jonathan. Where I'm genuinely struggling at the moment in choosing a tire to replace my 5 year old MCCs is that none of the other AS tires are IMHO remotely good enough in the dry compared with the CC2 never mind the summer tire (in dry braking the CC2 is only about 6 ft worse than the MP4 which is very impressive whilst Pirelli, Goodyear and Conti are circa 14, 20 and 22ft worse respectively than the MP4 which makes them in dry conditions worse than a budget summer tire!!!). So top marks to the CC2. However the figures suggest that the CC2 isn't great in the wet compared with the best AS tires never mind the summer tire (circa 20 ft worse in warm wet braking than its MP4 cousin which is pretty disappointing). I know these figures will likely reverse in sub 7C conditions but........
I guess I'm being picky given what I'm wanting but I'm really just saying that I wish Michelin had stuck more closely to the original premise of the CC family which was a summerish tire that could cope in the snow rather than chase winter performance. Ultimately if you need stellar snow performance e.g. in central Europe/Scandinavia/Scotland you are probably swapping for a winter tire anyway in the cold months.
Ho hum.
The new CC2 is better than your current tire in the wet, so maybe it's a simpler choice than you think
Very fair point albeit one would and should expect improvement in performance over 5 years. Undoubtedly the CC2 will be better than the CC. My reasons for questioning the CC2 wet performance is that we have recently moved from Kent to Herefordshire/Welsh borders which is wetter which is why I am more bothered by wet performance than previously when I bought the original CCs.
I'm actually more interested in comparing the delta between the CC2 and summer tires than other AS tires as the latter are generally far too winter focussed for our mild climate.
Thus I had a go at comparing the CC2 v the P4 and it looks like on dry braking, dry handling and wet handling the CC2 is within 5-6% of the P4 which is really impressive and more than acceptable given that the P4 is an excellent summer tire. Wear and noise is within 8-10% which is OK. Straight aqua is circa 12% better - great?. However summer wet braking is up to 13-15% worse and that is extremely disappointing.
I guess it proves your point that you really should swap tires every spring and autumn. However that's expensive plus you need to store the other set of wheels. It really is a fascinating subject.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think I will go with the CC2s for the point you make and accept the warm wet braking result and for the fact that in the winter months the P4 will suffer performance wise compared with the CC2 anyway.
Two presumably well run test by two clearly world class testers ( Don't be modest your testing is legit ), with some converging and some diverging results. However since they were multiple variables changed it's hard to know why, except to speculate. I find it completely fascinating it reminds me of an organic chemistry lab in college. I am having way too much fun trying to select an optimal tire, luckily I drive a Golf R, so tire reviews testing is spot on for me!
And you have a car that will flatter most tires :)
How its possible that Goodyear in tests from 2020 225/45 was 3rd lowest noise and year after 225/50 its 10th ?
Size differences, competitors moving on, different test conditions
Just to show how weighting can change results I took ABs scores and scored 40% for wet, 35% for dry, 10% for snow, 10% for wear/price/RR, 2.5% for Aqua and 2.5% for noise. On this basis Vredestein won with Michelin 2nd, Hankook 3rd and Goodyear only 5th.
Agreed, nice example. I really want to develop a system for the site where you can pick your weighting and see the results change in real time but my javascript skills are somewhat lacking!
As you always say, Jonathan, different people have different requirements from their tires. Living in Herefordshire/Shropshire we don't see a lot of snow so I need a tire that is dry/wet focussed. I don't need Nokian levels of snow performance. Rather I want a tire that on the rare occasions we get the white stuff has the traction to get me up the many hills around here and then brake safely. A summer tire can't do that. Hence I have the original CCs which I am about to change. If I was in Scotland that might be different. I just hope that with the new CC2 Michelin aren't giving wet performance away to boost their snow grip. The Vredestein result has given me food for thought due to its fantastic wet performance (we get a lot of rain in the Marches) but I guess the dry braking just isn't good enough.
One additional test that might be useful is black ice. We're far more likely to see that in most of the UK than snow. On the one occasion I hit a patch of black ice I can't say the CCs felt great. They were probably better than summer tires but it doesn't happen often enough for me to be able to compare accurately.
Ice testing would be useful, but it's incredibly time consuming (expensive) so it doesn't often get performed for all season, or even central European winter tire tests these days
Aha guess there had to be a reason. Fair enough?
Slightly confused by the conclusions on the Auto Bild report. Auto Bild say the Goodyear tire has no weaknesses with convincing performance across all conditions yet it is 4.3 metres worse than the Michelin CC2 and only 9th in dry braking and 13th in dry handling which is 10.26% and 1.86% respectively worse than the CC2. Meanwhile the Michelin gets marked down for wet performance even though it is only 3.2 metres worse than the Goodyear in wet braking and is 12th in wet handling which is only 5.86% and 3.62% respectively worse than the Goodyear.
To be over 14 feet slower to brake in dry conditions than the CC2 is not great IMHO.
So if Michelin is being marked down for wet performance then surely Goodyear (and others) should be for dry performance
Agreed, I thought the same when writing it up. Maybe something was lost in translation but I did double check!
I've noticed that lots of all season tire reviews (not yours I'm happy to say) seem to make allowances for less than stellar dry performance provided snow is really good (a good example is the 2021 AZ all season test which gives 1st place to Conti despite a very average dry performance and wet as well - 6.3M worse under cool wet braking than the best!!! All made up for by a mega snow result).
I thought the CC2 wear results were fascinating. Michelin have always prided themselves on being near the best on wear so to be mid pack at 40K Km and 10K worse than the best premium tire was a surprise. Doing a maximum 7K Km a year in any one of our two cars then it's not that critical for me as I would probably change every 5-6 years anyway even if the tread depth was OK but if I was doing say 20K pa in a vehicle then that might be different.
what kind of tire are the "reference"? For example there are big differences between a michelin energy, primacy and sport pilot
Sadly Autobild didn't publish that information.
Out of all these test I just found my next winter tires: Nokian Seasonproof. It seems to be better than the winter tires in TR and AB tests , different cars , different conditions .
Mr. Benson , would you please take into account a future test or more with a FWD not sporty heavy estate , I mean for us that a RWD or a lighter, smaller car won't be good enough for transportation needs ( a family won't travel in it confortably, at least mine doesn't).
What do you say about it?
It's unlikely anyone will specifically use a heavy estate car for tire testing as you generally try and appeal to the largest audience. The good news is that there's not a huge difference in weights, and there have been some tests using estate versions of cars like the Golf estate which can be found on the site, plus it wouldn't really change the ranking in a meaningful way
I'm interested to know how the General Altimax 365 AW will fare vs. the other All Weather tires. I would expect superior snow and ice performance as it appears the 365 AW was derived from a winter tire heritage. Any data on this new tire yet?
I've not tested this against other all weather tires, General make some good tires for the price point so I assume it will be good value, but perhaps not as good as something like a CC2
Autobild tested the Altimax 365 in the qualification, it's ranked 28th from overall 32 tires. In the qualification they are only doing a dry and wet braking test. I think some of the lower ranked like the Kleber Quadraxer 2 or Uniroyal Allseasonexpert 2 are quite good in the snow but they have a disadvantage in the dry+wet braking test and failed to qualify.
I was about buying the Pirelli SF2 in 225/40 R19 (front) and 255/35 R19 (rear) for a Giulia with 280BHP, but seeing these results I now have some doubts. How could these results be so different from the tests from Tire reviews? They seem two entirely different tires.
Also, CC2 has similar results, way worse on wet in this test compared to the other one.
As I would use them as winter tires and I live in a temperate place, so dry and wet performance have more priority and temperature rarely below 0, and sporty feeling if possible. What would you suggest?
I've explained this in the article the best I can.